An Architect’s Perspective on the Shifts Happening in the AEC Industry

More About This Episode

In this episode, Zach, Beth and Ben directly answer questions about how not only the industry has been impacted by the pandemic, but specifically how architects have been affected.

Transcript

Zach:

On today's episode of Smarter Building Materials Marketing, we bring on an architect who shares their perspective on what they see that's happening and the shifts that are occurring in the AEC space. Now, before we get into the episode, I want to make sure you know about a really important workshop and report that we at Venveo have put together along with the Farnsworth Group, that's going to help you be more effective in your marketing heading into 2021. If you go to venveo.com/covidreport, what you're going to be able to get is downloadable material workshop information that we're holding October 28th, that's going to help you as a manufacturer be more effective in your marketing. We've done firsthand market research with the Farnsworth group on what pros, GCs, contractors, architects, and home builders are doing and shifts that are occurring in how you can be more effective in your marketing as well as demand shifts that we're seeing that we're bringing directly to you. This is super valuable information that any manufacturer is going to find helpful as they're planning for this next year. Again, go to vimeo.com/covidreport. Sign up for that workshop. Get that report and be more effective in your marketing. All right, let's get into the show.

Voice Over:

Welcome to the Smarter Building Materials Marketing Podcast, helping you find better ways to grow leads, sales, and outperform your competition.

Zach:

All right, this is Smarter Building Materials Marketing. I am Zach Williams alongside my co host Beth PopNikolov, and we have a great show planned for you all today.

Beth:

We are really excited about our guest, before we get into exactly who he is and just how big fans we are of him. This podcast is basically in direct response to a ton of questions that we've been getting about, not just how the channel has been affected by COVID, but specifically architects. The majority of manufacturers that we talk to directly market and sell to architects. And, as we all know, life in the marketing and selling world is just simply not the same. So we're really excited to welcome Ben Glunz. He is the CEO of Anguleris technologies. And, if you could see his background, you would be assured that he is also an architect. Ben, thanks so much for being on our show and welcome.

Ben:

Thank you, I've been looking forward to this for a while.

Beth:

We are so excited to have you here. Anguleris technologies means quite a lot of things. You guys have your hands in an awful lot of pots. Why don't you introduce yourself and all of the awesome things that you guys have going on?

Ben:

Sure. So we are a group of architects and building professionals turned marketers and digital gurus. We are known probably better for our two flagship products, BIMsmith, which is an online research platform for AEC pros to be able to research building products and then bring it right into their building projects seamlessly. So that's one part of our business. And then our other flagship product is called Swatchbox. And it is a sample fulfillment software and logistics platforms for building materials companies.

So really if you were to put a bow on our mission as Anguleris, it's making it seamless for AEC pros and manufacturers to work together. And so that's really what we're dedicated to and we leverage our staff of building pros to make that actually meaningful.

Zach:

Ben, what I really like about your platform, and this is not meant to be a shameless plug, is that it's very focused on, I think, solving some very specific problems and headaches for manufacturers. But what I want to dive in with you today to talk about is hearing from your perspective about how things have changed and shifted in the AEC community. For our listeners, we were talking before we got on the podcast today, about how I really feel that before COVID, all of your marketing before Kobe has basically been reset. Every article, every testimonial, everything that's been said or done in the past, it's like basically this is a brand new thing.

Because what was said before doesn't apply today. And I really want to hear from your standpoint, and if we can just kick things off and hear from you about what you see that's changing. What are the biggest shifts that you're seeing with the AEC community and then what do manufacturers need to be noticing about that and how do they need to be changing their approach to marketing and sales? So, no pressure. That's a huge question, but that's where I want to start.

Ben:

Okay. Yeah. Not a problem. Those are great questions.

Like anyone, one of the biggest things that's affecting all of us right now is the transition to working from home. And we're past that, right? Everybody's figured it out. You're either going to find a way to work in an office or you're going to be stuck at home probably for a few more months, if not for some employers they're making plans till the end of 2021, just for the stability of the mental space of their employees. They're just saying, we're committing to a format and we're going to stick with that regardless of what happens. So people were saying, "Yeah, well, by the end of December, we'll all be back."

I think that ship has sailed. So, then you move on to, okay, then how do we work as a business in the meantime?

And I've talked to some firms that are in maybe more rural regions or maybe less impacted States where restrictions are less stringent. They're back to their offices in some States. I know folks who are in firms and Texas and places like that. They're getting back to normal. But if you look at the major metro areas, Chicago, LA, San Francisco, New York, where the major, major firms of the world are located, a lot of those are still working from home.

Now there's a whole conversation about what does that actually mean for how a building is designed and how the collaborative process happens? Because as you know, architects are probably one of the most collaborative professions in that you have your consultants, you have your owner, you have your contractor, you have your designers, you have your building material providers, you have your technology companies that are enabling you through technology. And so you have to bring that all together into this perfect concoction that ends up being a building. And that can be a challenge when it's all virtual.

But one thing that I have seen is that technology has come a long way in 10 years. And a lot of people give the AEC space or construction specifically this bad rap that there's not been any progress in this sector. And that we're second only to the mining and gas industry or something like that. You see these studies and it's like, I think that's kind of harsh because the fact that we are practicing the way we are now, and that firms are practicing the way we are now is a testament to the last 10 years and the technology investments that have been made. And so, things like BIM becoming absolutely the defacto way to design. VR, stepping into an actual viable, as a viable tool for client review and discussion. Tools like zoom.

I mean, even go back 10 year and we weren't even really looking at iPhones in everybody's hands. Some people had them. Internet connections were much slower. Zoom, wasn't even born yet. Slack wasn't born yet. So, all of these things that we have that we take for granted now have enabled really the world of AEC technology to continue even in the midst of everybody being at home. So what that means is as a building product manufacturer, you really need to be aware that architecture firms are still going full steam, construction companies are still going full steam. That's just not what you've been able to get away with for the last 60 to 80 years.

Zach:

You've got to change.

Ben:

You've got to and folks like the three of us, I know, have . been on stages all over the world saying that for probably the last 10 years. But one thing that's really interesting-

Zach:

Now people are listening. Now they have to right?

Ben:

Well it's not just that. It forces everyone's hands.

Beth:

Yeah. Everyone knew this moment was coming. Everybody manufacturer we've talked to for the last 10 years says, yeah, it's in our five year plan or 10 year plan. But to your point, they've just been given a nice little shove.

Ben:

Well, and for those who are the innovators and the dreamers, it's a perfect storm in that we actually get to do what we've been talking about right? I mean, it forces everyone's hand to say, all right, let's do it. It's now a must have, not a nice to have. And I think that's really interesting.

Zach:

What about demand for products Ben? Specifically, where are you seeing the most growth? Because there's been a lot and we've been researching this and we actually have a webinar, an online workshop we're hosting here in the next couple of weeks about this specifically. But I want to hear from you, where are you seeing the highest growth in demand for products and then where are you seeing some lagging growth? And that can be both commercial and residential.

Ben:

There's really two answers, maybe three. We look at Q2, what we were saying was the companies that started to emerge immediately from the March, April timeframe where everybody shut down were the residential products. So I think the first one, ironically, because it's not really ironic, but interestingly was the decking companies. So.

Zach:

Oh yeah. They're killing it.

Beth:

Yeah.

Zach:

Yeah. Outdoor, landscape, patio, can you imagine being in that industry right now?

Ben:

No. Well, I can because I talk to them pretty often. We have both Trex and then also AZEK Timbertech are clients of ours. So we talked to them pretty often and it's been super interesting for them. They've been waiting for this for 10 years too right? Even that's a fairly new technology, the composite decking and all that. 15 years ago, that was just brand new. So investments they've made in their business are certainly paying off. So then the next wave that we saw and are still seeing, probably ended up being the winner right up there with decking is probably paint. Because then what's the other thing, you're going to paint your office. You're going to paint your bedroom. You're stuck in your house. Let's repaint the whole dang thing.

Ben:

I don't know if either of you did any paint projects in your house, but I feel like everybody I know has painted at least one thing.

Zach:

I refuse. I refuse to do it.

Beth:

Everyone has that neglected room that they're like, "I mean, I guess we have to do it now."

Ben:

So that was also quite a bit. But then there were also the companies who thought this was going to be another 2008.

Zach:

Yes.

Ben:

I think it was maybe some bad thinking. And I obviously asked the question to when it all first, when the markets started going down and down and down, is this the new '08 for the building industry? And reality is '08 was caused by housing. So that's one key fundamental difference about this dip versus the last dip. The fundamentals are very different. Really the movement in the stock market right now and with companies and the way they've invested in shutdown, it was really speculation on what a global economic shutdown due to a pandemic would do for demand from consumers, businesses, whomever.

And I think a lot of companies speculated wrong that demand was going to go back to 2008 levels. And so they shut down plants, took stuff offline, furloughed people. And what that ended up doing was causing a giant bubble in the supply chain. Or I guess a vacuum, not really a bubble, but a vacuum in the supply chain. And so some of our customers basically got behind just because they shut down and they never should have shut down. They should have just kept going but who would have known? Who would have known that we'd be sitting here today saying there's shortages of decking and dry wall and, well I guess not paint. But who would've thought?

Zach:

Well, it makes me think of, and this is not the best analogy, but makes me think of the great depression. I remember going to McDonald's with my grandma when I was a kid and my grandma was shoving napkins in her sleeves of her shirt because she was afraid she would never have napkins.

Ben:

Yeah.

Zach:

I'm like, what is wrong with my grandma?

Ben:

Yeah.

Zach:

And the only thing, a lot of manufacturers and the most recent thing that manufacturers were scarred from was '07/'08. Yep. And so any indication of that happening, it's like, boom, well, that's, what's going to happen.

Ben:

Right.

Beth:

Well, it was certainly too much to hope for, the world is shutting down. Oh, that definitely indicates that my business is about to explode in demand. I think that would have been a little too optimistic for anybody to have projected that things went the way that they went.

Zach:

True.

Ben:

You're right.

Beth:

If you did, I'd like to hear from you and understand why you know what you know, because that's incredible if you predicted that it was going to go the way that it did.

Ben:

No, no, no. And I'm not blaming anyone for those decisions. And like I said, who would've thought.

Beth:

Right, exactly.

Ben:

But obviously, it did so...

Zach:

What about residential versus commercial, Ben? Because that's a big question a lot of people have. They're wondering specifically about hospitality.

Ben:

Yeah.

Zach:

Tell me what you're seeing on your end from residential and commercial. Residential is clearly doing very well. Where are you seeing strong indicators and negative indicators on commercial?

Ben:

Yeah, I think that's a great question. So obviously Q2 was very strong for residential and so will Q3 be. You all have done a great job covering Lowe's and Home Depot and the booms that they're all-seeing. But in the commercial market, I think the first places we saw that's starting to expand. We'll probably the end of July, early August, end of September. Because I think some companies came to the realization, one, hey, we're going to be okay. And then two, "Hey, this is a great time to do X while our facility is empty. While our people aren't here, let's upgrade it to accommodate this. Let's upgrade that to accommodate for that."

I'm aware of some companies who are making the UV lighting, that are going into the ductwork, stuff like that. There's obviously the immediate retrofit for COVID kind of play. We're getting rid of things that don't make sense and putting in things that do make sense. So that's obviously a no brainer that you're going to see that.

The other thing that's super interesting, I was talking to a major manufacturer who they do a lot of research, market research, and I ask them, what's going to happen to the office market from your perspective? Because you sell into the office market a lot, XYZ company. And they said something really interesting. And that is they expect the declining demand for office space because that's obviously could become a bubble, who knows, but the declining demand for office space will likely be absorbed by the need for spreading out employees further apart.

So if you think about it, a lot of companies were moving toward benching and this we're all here together in a communal space. And there's this bullpen idea and maybe a couple of private offices, but we're all crammed together. Well now you need to spread people out. They need to be six feet apart and we need aisles in one direction and another direction. And I think that's going to be seared into our brand. You mentioned, I think it was your grandma or something like that, with the great depression. I think that will always be, for those of us who have lived through this time. I think we're never going to pump gas the same way. It's like, "Oh my God, I can't touch that. It's like radioactive, right?"

Beth:

Yeah.

Ben:

I think anybody who's lived through this as an adult, there will be things that will always be in the back of our minds. And I think packed offices, I think, will be in that same vein. So some of these larger companies that sell into the office market are basically saying it may end up netting out because you'll need more office space per person, like square feet per person in a commercial office than you might have previously.

Zach:

That's what we're running into, for perspective. I mean, I know we're just one indicator, but, I mean, we've got our office desks on the other side of this wall, we're five and a half feet per person.

Ben:

Yeah.

Zach:

And in terms of space that they have, it's not enough. What do we got to do?

Ben:

Right.

So then on the hospitality and some of the food sector and restaurants, things like that. Yeah, anybody that's directly impacted by all this. I absolutely love the Warren Buffet quote and he dusted this off. I think he said it previous to any of those, but he sort of dusted it off when things started shutting down, you don't realize who's swimming naked until the tide goes out. And I thought that was a really insightful thing to say, companies that are over leveraged, probably overextended and probably riding on a trigger already. And then something like this happens and it either just comes down like a house of cards or you reorganize and you fight your way out of bankruptcy. But the people who aren't swimming naked, there are companies out there who were fiscally conservative, built up capital reserves and guess what they're buying, they're investing. And that's the smart thing to do at a time like this. Because it will come back. We will go back to hotels. We will get back on airplanes, someday.

Zach:

Well, I've been traveling a little bit recently and I started traveling, I think maybe June, May or June was my first flight. And back then, it was like, you basically had a private jet. One or two other people you didn't know were tagging along. And I traveled this past week and it was pretty crowded. I was really surprised.

Beth:

The fatigue is real though. I literally just read an article in the New York Times this morning talking about pandemic fatigue. People are just over it. And it's really difficult to keep up.

Zach:

Oh, I think people are, yeah.

Beth:

It's difficult to keep up the level that's needed, and you can feel like businesses are like, "Well, we've got to start doing more," but people are like, "Well, I'm still working from home. I'm still not traveling." I think what's interesting, Ben, from a long-term perspective about traveling is we've talked about that. How many of your clients have their salespeople on the road? We have clients who their salespeople were on the road 300 days out of the year.

Ben:

Yeah.

Beth:

Which first of all, ain't no millennial signing up for that job, but that's another conversation for another time. But how much money have they saved by not having people travel at this volume?

Ben:

Oh, and trade shows too right? I mean that's another.

Zach:

Oh, I know.

Beth:

RIP. Let's just like take a moment of silence for all people who organize trade shows. Man.

Ben:

But I have this crazy theory, Beth. Do you want to hear my crazy theory on trade shows?

Beth:

So bad. I actually want to have a completely separate podcast and just talk about the future of trade shows because it is the hottest of the hot topics at Venveo. I'll tell you that. Yes. I want to hear it.

Ben:

I'll give you a teaser then so you'll have to invite me back.

Beth:

Word.

Ben:

I have this theory that trade shows are going to be a big booming industry in like, 2022.

Beth:

Do you want to know what? I was just talking to a builder and asked him, I was like, "So if they do..." This was before IBS said they were going completely online and you could tell. We all got those emails from them where you were like, it's weird that you're not mentioning that what's going on is going on.

Ben:

Exactly.

Beth:

But okay. I asked him, I was like, "Hey, if IBS happens, are you going to go?" And he's like, "I will be first in line. I am desperate to get to a trade show."

But it's almost like this is what trade shows needed. This will be a resurgence where it's like, okay, let's reset. Let's think about the actual value that we're bringing to our new customers, which is not how manufacturers looked at it. Especially the builder show. It was like, "Well, we'll just get all our builder customers in a single building." This guy was like, "I am the first one on the plane, the first one in the door, pandemics schmandemic. I need to be in a space where there are 3000 potential suppliers for my projects."

It was one of those eye-opening... And he was like, virtual is just, which-

Ben:

That's horrible have you done any?

Zach:

It's horrible.

Beth:

As digital marketers? It's hard. I haven't heard a single good thing from marketers, from manufacturers, from builders, from architects. They're all like, "Why are we doing this? This is terrible."

Yeah. So I mean, it very well may be all of 2021, but let it be recorded here that 2022 or 2023.

Beth:

No, it's too far. Don't even...

Zach:

No, I think 2022. I do.

Beth:

I think I totally agree with you, Ben. I do. I think I completely agree.

Ben:

As far as a big boom in trade shows, I think 2022 could end up being a little bit cautious. I think if that's the first step to go through and it's like everyone's like... And you've probably seen the SNL sketch where they're all standing in a circle with guns and pointing at each other and walk down the street. And it's like... That's going to be everybody with their six-foot radius at a trade show.

Zach:

Oh gosh.

Hey. Since we're talking about architects, I want to let you know about a really important research report and workshop that we're holding here at Venveo. On October 28th Venveo and the Farnsworth Group are putting together an online workshop that's paired with a data packed market research report that we're bringing to manufacturers across the industry. If you go to venveo.com/covidreport. Again, that's venveo.com/covidreport. What you're going to find is information about a firsthand market research report and data study that we've done with the Farnsworth Group that we're bringing to the industry. It's got a ton of information. We're bringing valuable insight to you and I want to make sure you know about it. Go there, check it out. All right, let's get back to the episode.

Beth:

You're talking about the manufacturing who is expanding or office space is going to just need to expand. So there will be less individual or smaller offices, but there will need to be more larger offices to allow proper social distancing.

Ben:

I don't know that it will be larger, but I think it will absorb any loss of...

Beth:

Right, so some people will say virtual, but the people who do come back, you're not necessarily shrinking your real estate because you need the same amount for fewer people.

Ben:

Right, so I think it'll probably end up netting out. That would be my guess.

Beth:

What is so interesting about what you're saying? And it's really the conversations we're starting to have it at Venveo and I think that the slow and sad realization that we're all having is manufacturers or anyone cannot just be planning for 2021. It is a shift in how you will be marketing and selling how your products will be used, how we will be interacting from now on. There's not this hiatus that I think we all thought would happen. It's just a literal shift. So, with that in mind, has your thinking about marketing for this next year and beyond, so it's not just how do you make 2021 really special.

But, as you're thinking about manufacturer's marketing in the coming years, how does their marketing need to change or pivot so that they can continue to grow sales?

Ben:

Yeah, I think we're just going to see more rapid adaptation moving forward because, in a way, the dam has broken now. And there's really no going back at this point, as far as a lot of the digital strategies and the digital engagement. I think it's super interesting. We used to get on a lot of Zoom calls and only use audio because it was just taboo to turn on your video camera. And at least for us, with our customers, you would get on and you're staring at a blank screen, but nobody has their camera on. And if someone crazy accidentally flipped it on and they're like in their underwear or whatever and like, "They turned on their camera." But now, for our people, that's our company policy.

You get a call, you flip on your camera and that's the way we're going to communicate as a brand moving forward and it's not taboo anymore. And our customers are doing that. So the video call culture, I think is finally becoming mainstream within a corporate setting, which does have implications for the way architects and contractors want to be called on. "Why do you have to come to my office if I can just jump on with you for 30 minutes and do a video call?" Why do you need to disrupt my day and my workflow, if we can just do that, whether they're in the office or at home, it doesn't really matter. But I think that's one of those things that we're not going to go back to just getting on calls with just audio.

Zach:

Well, it's becoming a convenience and efficiency play. What started as a health concern.

Ben:

Right.

Zach:

It's going to just on a greater level impact speed. The speed for communication, speed for, I need this information right now. Why do you need to come here? I don't want you to come here. It's true. I mean, it sounds mean, but it is really true how people, they want the personal interaction, they want the quick access, but they also, at the same time, they don't want their day to be disrupted.

Beth:

Yeah.

Ben:

Well, the thing I remind manufacturers all the time is if I'm an architect and I'm designing a building, there might be several hundred unique brands in my building. And if each and every one of you called me up on the phone to just let me know if there's something new, I would never get any work done.

Zach:

So what would you do? What would you recommend to that manufacturer that wants to get in front of them? What would you tell them?

Ben:

I would say be the most available person possible.

Beth:

That's great advice. That's great advice question.

Ben:

If you have a question, regardless of whether I would email you, chat you, text you, request a sample or order your digital literature, whatever it is that I need, make it so that I can have it immediately and in the way that I need it. And that when, by golly, I do decide to pick up the phone and call you, please pick up.

And if you don't pick up on the first ring, fine, call me back within an hour. I mean, it couldn't be more simple than that.

Zach:

It's simple.

Ben:

Because I mean, that really was my experience when I was in practice. I literally had days where I would take my phone off the hook and I guess that dates me a little, but I had a phone on my desk. I literally took it off and just set it down because it was, "Hey, can I get in," "Hey, can I get in," "Hey, can I get in," "Lunch and learn," "Lunch and learn," "Lunch and learn." "Hey, can I send you this?" And it's just like, "Guys, I don't care. I really don't. And I know that sounds crass, but then on the other hand-

Beth:

On the other side, yeah. Where are you when I need you?

Ben:

When [crosstalk 00:27:10] to get data to my customer, nowhere to be found. And it's just the most frustrating thing in the world. And it's usually the same people who are knocking on your door every day that when you actually need them, you can't find them. And that's very frustrating.

Beth:

That's got to be one of the most consistent pieces of feedback we hear from architects, certainly others in the channel, but right now we're talking about architects, of how important reps are. And it's interesting because there's also this contention with reps. Do we have them internal? Do we have them external? How do we get in front of architects like we were just talking about? But the most consistent piece of feedback and even in this report that we just did about how manufacturers are serving the channel during COVID, it's communication. It's being able to get in touch with your reps. We've heard even people say, if I'm considering someone I'll call their rep. Because I can tell if they are confident in their product, by the way that they talk to me.

Ben:

Yeah. Oh, 100%. And the other thing I would say is stop treating every little digital footprint as a lead. It's not a lead, we're not a buyer. Architects are not buyers.

Beth:

So good. Oh man, that's good.

Ben:

They're specifiers, they're recommenders, they're consultants. They are people who are telling the owner and the contractor what they should use.

Zach:

They're influencers.

Ben:

So you need to treat us like we're on your team. We're helping you sell your product. Don't treat me as if I'm some lead that you can just start peppering me with automated emails, just because my name came through because I downloaded something. And we tell people that all the time, especially with BIM, cause that's very early on in the process, schematic design, design development phases. I'm not your buyer. So stop treating me as if I'm a buyer. I am recommending your product to the buyer.

Zach:

That's great.

Beth:

So what, if a manufacturer finds that an architect converts on their site, obviously you're going to take sales funnel into consideration, but let's say you're at the beginning. They download your BIM file. What would you find helpful? How should a manufacturer reach out to you?

Ben:

Yeah, so I would say, if you absolutely have to follow up, I'm not of the camp that Ben needs a follow up because I'm going to ask if I need to follow up. So provide me a way to ask for follow up, of course, but don't just automatically assume that I want to follow up. Number one. Number two, if I do ask for that follow up, be prompt about it. And three, if you absolutely have to follow up, follow up with additional information and just say, here are the rest of the assets. Here's the rest of our toolkit. If need a sample, here's where you get it. If you need a spec, we have great spec writers. We can help you. And then maybe touch base again in three to six months.

Beth:

Really good advice.

Ben:

If you absolutely have to. But really it's just, in this world, it's about getting the information and making that available in a way that I can just find it on my own.

Zach:

I mean, and this is in a complete different world, but if I look at home Depot, they've got texts, they've got chat, they've got phone call, they've got email, they've got their website. It's not about forcing people down one specific avenue. It's whatever's best for you. You do you. We're just here to help you.

Ben:

Right. And they do that in the store too, right? If you walk through Home Depot, you can pretty easily find someone and say, "Hey, can you help me with this?" It's very frustrating though. If I ask a question and they don't know the answer and they don't really care to get you the answer. Have you ever had that guy?

Zach:

Oh, never. Doesn't want to help you?

Ben:

And I had that happen just the other day at the store. And I'm like, "So you're not going to walk me over to the guy who does know or?" So I ended up going and finding another person, but that was so frustrating.

Zach:

That's true.

Ben:

There are other stores, I won't name names, but it's like a ghost town. You walk through there, you can't find anybody. So, maybe these big box material supply stores are a great metaphor for calling out architects as well. Because you either do it well and you're informative or you're chasing someone through the aisles. Imagine if you walked into Home Depot and somebody came running down the aisle, "No, don't buy that one, buy this one." That would be the most bizarre experience. You would never do that. But that's what some reps do, if they go and force-feed over the phone.

Zach:

That's true. Ben, this has been awesome, man. If somebody wants to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to connect.

Ben:

Sure. You could either go to anguleris.com. That's A-N-G-U-L-E-R-I-S dot com or you can email me [email protected] or if that's too hard to remember my name, just send it to [email protected]. So, we're on Twitter, wherever you want to follow us. That's great.

Zach:

Convenient communication right? Nice little follow-up.

Ben:

Yeah.

Zach:

That's great. Awesome, Ben man, thank you so much for coming on the show. This has been awesome. For listeners out there, make sure you go to venveo.com/covidreport to get access to that report and find out about the online workshop. Until next time, I'm Zach Williams alongside Beth PopNikolov. Thanks, everybody.